Express News Service
Former Pakistan foreign minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri in his 2015 book, Neither a Hawk Nor a Dove, had claimed that India and Pakistan nearly reached a path-breaking formula on Kashmir through back channel negotiations from 2004-07. Kasuri spoke to Preetha Nair about current Pakistan Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif’s recent call for peace talks with India and more.
Edited excerpts:
Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif’s interview calling for peace talks with India has created a flutter. Doable or wishful thinking?I welcome any statements from India or Pakistan, which speak of improved relations. I am aware of the various factors and impediments on both sides. From my experience, given the political will on both sides, these can be overcome. I believe all problems and disputes between the two countries can be resolved, including Kashmir. Given the nature of the problems of both countries, there are too many actors looking for an opportunity at any time to rock the boat.So, my suggestion is that first talks should be conducted on the back channel so that neither party tries to make political capital through self-serving leaks. During our time, we almost agreed on the settlement framework of J&K. At that time also, the basic framework was discussed on the back channel so that spoilers got very little opportunity to poison the atmosphere.
After the interview, there was a clarification by Pakistan PMO that dialogues can take place only after the reversal of the decision taken on J&K.The prevailing political polarisation in Pakistan may have necessitated this. The Pakistani PM was criticised roundly by the Opposition for that statement. I faced a similar situation when I was foreign minister but I refused to budge. Everybody is trying to make political capital out of anything the other party says. It doesn’t mean one should give up in despair. We can’t change the situation in India or in Pakistan. We have to learn to live with those realities and still be clear about the ultimate objective – peace.
Pak PM also said that the country has learned lessons from three wars.First a correction. There were four wars, the last being at Kargil in 1999. Second, the sentence could have been better phrased. PM talks of both Pakistan and India and not just Pakistan when he talks of ‘learned lessons’. But your own question implies that only Pakistan is learning from its mistakes and that India need not.
India, in response to Pak PM said that it wants a normalised atmosphere free from terror and violence. Your comments.It’s a chicken and egg situation. My advice would be to start something on the back channel. Recent ceasefire was also a result of back channel talks – though at military to military level in 2018 when the two DGMOs held talks. It could not have come out of the blue or without the blessings of the political masters in Delhi and Islamabad.
Khurshid Mahmud KasuriFormer Pakistan Foreign MinisterIt’s still a deadlock as both countries don’t have high commissioners in place, no trade ties, and virtually a freeze on movement. If a beginning is to be made, don’t you think the two sides should focus on the resumption of trade and upgrading of diplomatic ties?Yes, I agree. In fact, a very strange thing happened in Pakistan during PM Imran Khan’s tenure. One day the government agreed to open trade, and the next day, they reversed the decision just as you’re referring to PM Sharif’s statement. Let me say one thing clearly, Prime Minister Modi bears greater responsibility in promoting regional peace since he is currently the master of everything in India, which includes politics, the media, the judiciary, and the economy. That’s not the case in Pakistan where Pakistan PMs have to keep on juggling the ball to satisfy conflicting constituencies. The greater responsibility thus falls on PM Modi to make efforts for peace in South Asia.
Recently, Pak journalist Hamid Mir claimed that PM Modi was scheduled to visit Pakistan in April 2021 and resume trade ties on condition that they will freeze the Kashmir issue for 20 years or so. He said that back channel talks were conducted by former army chief Bajwa. But then PM Khan backed out fearing political backlash.It’s quite clear that the articles were based on information directly supplied by General Bajwa.
Mir also said that General Bajwa conducted the back channel talks with India without the knowledge of Imran Khan.I have no means to confirm this. On a lighter note though, let me say that the two foreign offices are normally not the greatest peacemakers – so it’s not a bad thing if they weren’t aware.
Modi visited Lahore in 2015 during Nawaz Sharif’s time. Now that his party is in power, do you think it’s another opportunity for both countries?Based on Hamid Mir’s conversations with General Bajwa, it appears that PM Modi was supposed to visit Pakistan in 2021. If true, it only proves my point that things can change quite dramatically and in a jiffy. We don’t have to lose hope. However, the voices in India, which used to speak of peace with Pakistan are not being heard much. The media, particularly electronic media, is jingoistic.
Pak PM also suggested involving UAE in the talks.UAE is a good interlocutor and it is considered as a very close friend of Pakistan. And it’s a close economic partner of India too. So I think they are in a position to play a role.
Don’t you think back channel talks need to be accompanied by a broader political process?Of course. Unfortunately, the relationship between the two countries are very troubled. Back channel talks cannot help in creating an enabling environment for peace because by its very nature, it has to be secretive.Unless public opinion on both sides is in favour of improved relations and dialogue, nothing will fly. … India is a democratic country and I believe that it cannot live with a situation in which it is perceived to be constantly keeping Kashmiris down by force. This just cannot last and it is in India’s own interest to resolve these issues.
Do you suggest India pick up from where you left? Your book said that India agreed to a four-point formula to resolve the Kashmir issue.That is the wisest thing to do. It doesn’t have to be an exact copy. Current rulers must take ownership. After all, the so-called four-point formula rests on something eminently sensible, a solution that is acceptable to Kashmiris and of course, the governments and people of Pakistan and India.
How will the sharpening India-China competition play out in the ties between India and Pakistan?I hope that this does not impact the relations negatively but my fear is that it may well, unless handled prudently.
Former Pakistan foreign minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri in his 2015 book, Neither a Hawk Nor a Dove, had claimed that India and Pakistan nearly reached a path-breaking formula on Kashmir through back channel negotiations from 2004-07. Kasuri spoke to Preetha Nair about current Pakistan Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif’s recent call for peace talks with India and more.
Edited excerpts:
Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif’s interview calling for peace talks with India has created a flutter. Doable or wishful thinking?
I welcome any statements from India or Pakistan, which speak of improved relations. I am aware of the various factors and impediments on both sides. From my experience, given the political will on both sides, these can be overcome. I believe all problems and disputes between the two countries can be resolved, including Kashmir. Given the nature of the problems of both countries, there are too many actors looking for an opportunity at any time to rock the boat.So, my suggestion is that first talks should be conducted on the back channel so that neither party tries to make political capital through self-serving leaks. During our time, we almost agreed on the settlement framework of J&K. At that time also, the basic framework was discussed on the back channel so that spoilers got very little opportunity to poison the atmosphere.
After the interview, there was a clarification by Pakistan PMO that dialogues can take place only after the reversal of the decision taken on J&K.
The prevailing political polarisation in Pakistan may have necessitated this. The Pakistani PM was criticised roundly by the Opposition for that statement. I faced a similar situation when I was foreign minister but I refused to budge. Everybody is trying to make political capital out of anything the other party says. It doesn’t mean one should give up in despair. We can’t change the situation in India or in Pakistan. We have to learn to live with those realities and still be clear about the ultimate objective – peace.
Pak PM also said that the country has learned lessons from three wars.
First a correction. There were four wars, the last being at Kargil in 1999. Second, the sentence could have been better phrased. PM talks of both Pakistan and India and not just Pakistan when he talks of ‘learned lessons’. But your own question implies that only Pakistan is learning from its mistakes and that India need not.
India, in response to Pak PM said that it wants a normalised atmosphere free from terror and violence. Your comments.
It’s a chicken and egg situation. My advice would be to start something on the back channel. Recent ceasefire was also a result of back channel talks – though at military to military level in 2018 when the two DGMOs held talks. It could not have come out of the blue or without the blessings of the political masters in Delhi and Islamabad.
Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri
Former Pakistan Foreign MinisterIt’s still a deadlock as both countries don’t have high commissioners in place, no trade ties, and virtually a freeze on movement. If a beginning is to be made, don’t you think the two sides should focus on the resumption of trade and upgrading of diplomatic ties?
Yes, I agree. In fact, a very strange thing happened in Pakistan during PM Imran Khan’s tenure. One day the government agreed to open trade, and the next day, they reversed the decision just as you’re referring to PM Sharif’s statement. Let me say one thing clearly, Prime Minister Modi bears greater responsibility in promoting regional peace since he is currently the master of everything in India, which includes politics, the media, the judiciary, and the economy. That’s not the case in Pakistan where Pakistan PMs have to keep on juggling the ball to satisfy conflicting constituencies. The greater responsibility thus falls on PM Modi to make efforts for peace in South Asia.
Recently, Pak journalist Hamid Mir claimed that PM Modi was scheduled to visit Pakistan in April 2021 and resume trade ties on condition that they will freeze the Kashmir issue for 20 years or so. He said that back channel talks were conducted by former army chief Bajwa. But then PM Khan backed out fearing political backlash.
It’s quite clear that the articles were based on information directly supplied by General Bajwa.
Mir also said that General Bajwa conducted the back channel talks with India without the knowledge of Imran Khan.
I have no means to confirm this. On a lighter note though, let me say that the two foreign offices are normally not the greatest peacemakers – so it’s not a bad thing if they weren’t aware.
Modi visited Lahore in 2015 during Nawaz Sharif’s time. Now that his party is in power, do you think it’s another opportunity for both countries?
Based on Hamid Mir’s conversations with General Bajwa, it appears that PM Modi was supposed to visit Pakistan in 2021. If true, it only proves my point that things can change quite dramatically and in a jiffy. We don’t have to lose hope. However, the voices in India, which used to speak of peace with Pakistan are not being heard much. The media, particularly electronic media, is jingoistic.
Pak PM also suggested involving UAE in the talks.
UAE is a good interlocutor and it is considered as a very close friend of Pakistan. And it’s a close economic partner of India too. So I think they are in a position to play a role.
Don’t you think back channel talks need to be accompanied by a broader political process?
Of course. Unfortunately, the relationship between the two countries are very troubled. Back channel talks cannot help in creating an enabling environment for peace because by its very nature, it has to be secretive.
Unless public opinion on both sides is in favour of improved relations and dialogue, nothing will fly. … India is a democratic country and I believe that it cannot live with a situation in which it is perceived to be constantly keeping Kashmiris down by force. This just cannot last and it is in India’s own interest to resolve these issues.
Do you suggest India pick up from where you left? Your book said that India agreed to a four-point formula to resolve the Kashmir issue.
That is the wisest thing to do. It doesn’t have to be an exact copy. Current rulers must take ownership. After all, the so-called four-point formula rests on something eminently sensible, a solution that is acceptable to Kashmiris and of course, the governments and people of Pakistan and India.
How will the sharpening India-China competition play out in the ties between India and Pakistan?
I hope that this does not impact the relations negatively but my fear is that it may well, unless handled prudently.
